Thank you! It's a coaching philosophy thing and a front office needing to go cheap on some positions cuz of the cap and WR3/4 end up being those spots often times. Plus the front office building an O-line to run block.
Imagine if we had diggs thielen and Jefferson and really defilippo was right by passing cuz thats what we should be doing and build the offense to score because it's closer than the d lets get real here
you're right... if the Eagles take Jefferson, we're having a totally different conversation. I don't know if there's a wake-up call coming about that ceiling you mentioned but maybe after seeing this. Zimmer did once admit he misused Patterson
you're right... if the Eagles take Jefferson, we're having a totally different conversation. I don't know if there's a wake-up call coming about that ceiling you mentioned but maybe after seeing this. Zimmer did once admit he misused Patterson
Good piece (that most folks will either love or hate) and I'm largely in agreement with it, particularly just in terms of the lack of use of Diggs leading to his trade demand in the first place. The one aspect I wonder about though is the respective offensive lines. The Vikings haven't really been able to get up to "average" with the o-line in recent years (I think with the exception of 2017?) and that of course is an organizational failing. I think I saw I graphic in the Bills game last night that most of their o-line starters seemed to be roughly in the top third (or at the least top half) at their position. Of course the Vikes have consciously constructed an offensive line to run and maybe would have done better choosing players had they had a pass-oriented offense from the jump, but the failure to put together a "decent" o-line for almost all of the Spielman/Zimmer era has probably also limited what they can do offensively and/or would have resulted in less success had they decided on a "pass first" offense every season since acquiring Cousins. Might be a bit of chicken-and-the-egg problem here to in terms of o-line quality and offensive approach, but routinely bad pass blocking seems like a huge part of the story, however you want to lay the blame for that.
Thanks Geoff... You're right about the Vikings consistently failing to put a good pass blocking offensive line out there but consider that they built it this way. It was their choice to draft and play guys who were strong in run blocking. Otherwise Jones would have played LG over Dozier. Also Josh Allen is quite a bit different in terms of helping his OL from Cousins but there isn't much that can be done there. That's why I can't say that it's the OL's quality that keeps them from passing... the OL does what they designed it to do
Dozier over Jones all season long is indefensible to me, and I'm hardly one to question coaches/GMs about personnel (because what the hell do I know). Just made no sense at all.
Good article. Brought out a lot of what I felt watching the game last night. Diggs in a way sticking it to the Vikings for not relying on a modern passing offense. The sad thing is that even after all of this I have my doubts the Vikings will replicate this. My favorite point was that the Rams were everything the Vikings wished they could be, but what I think is hilarious is the Bille are literally everything the Vikings should aspire to be. The Bills have a defensive coach that doesn’t put the sole focus of his efforts on the defense and they lean into their offense since they realize how damn good they are at it. Then they complement it with good enough defense.
Thanks Joe. You're absolutely right about the Rams. The No. 1 defense could only hold up so long when the other team has an elite passing game. Great point about McDermott in Buffalo. That defense has a few good players but mostly just guys who fit what he wants to do with his scheme and then he brought it against Lamar
"What if the Vikings had done the same in 2019? Could they have beaten San Fran"... you mean the team that ran the ball 47 times and passed 19.... on their way to the Super Bowl ? the team that came within an eyelash of winning that Super Bowl by running and running again and then running again??? Are you actually arguing that our run first scheme made it impossible to beat teams like SF and GB who also use run first schemes?? Im thinking your argument might have a few holes in it.
I’m not sure I understand your argument. San Francisco was a top 5 team by passing Expected Points Added in 2019 and beat New Orleans 48-46 to help them get into a spot where they could have a home playoff game. They ran the ball that many times in one game against a defense incapable of stopping it. I would never argue that a team that’s crushing another team on the ground should stop. But the Vikings did not crush the 49ers on the ground in the playoffs... exactly the opposite.
when the Vikings got stopped in their run game, they didn’t have answers in the passing game in 2019. Is that statement inaccurate? When SF stopped Cook, it was over. When Cook was out vs GB in Week 16, it was over. My point is that if Diggs had been the centerpiece of their offense, maybe they would have given themselves a chance to respond when their run game wasn’t working because clearly targeting him 5 times was not effective
I wish Diggs all the best. He gave us the "Miracle," which is a lot more than other past Vikings have given before they moved on. The trade was a win win, since we get Jefferson on a rookie deal. 2019 was more about the o-line than not passing to Diggs enough. I'm sure Cousins would have loved to throw to Diggs all day long, but it's tough to do when your laying on your back!
I totally get the focus on the offensive line but I don't believe that's an explanation for the team not throwing more. Cousins has over a 100 QB rating the last 2 years, over 8 yards per pass attempt and a clean pocket on around 65% of his passes. They also put him in a position to be pressured by getting behind the sticks like on 3rd and 5 after 2 runs. For the record, Josh Allen pressure % this year was 37.1%, Kirk 38.6%
I think stats are great, but don't always tell the entire story. How much of that 65 percent clean pocket came in garbage time? . . . Or as a result of teams biting on play action caused by a commitment to the run? The point being, the stats aren't generated in a vacuum and don't' take account for changing circumstances. For example if the Vikings had gone to a heavier pass/run ratio favoring passing, would teams have adjusted and had more pressures? Probably. Given the Kubaick influence, I think the best way to look at it is John Elway's Superbowls. He had the most success when he had the support of a solid running game behind Terrell Davis and threw less, not more. I think that's the approach they are going for. Hey, don't get me wrong, as a fan, I always like seeing big play passing, and mixing in a little more pass would be a good thing, but trying to be something you're not, is a recipe for disaster.
So here's the thing about pressure rate... it's about 65% clean pocket for Kirk's entire career. So it's not garbage time. And his performance under pressure was nearly identical in QB rating (78 vs 72) to Josh Allen's. Pressure is not an excuse for not throwing the ball. And look, I get you on the John Elway bit and nobody loves 1990s football more than me but it's 2021 and the top 4 most efficient passing teams are in the super bowl. The only reason that a passing team is "something they're not" is because they set it up that way.
side note: Looked it up... The 97 Broncos were 9th in passing yards, 3rd in adjusted net yards per pass, 3rd in yards per completion and 4th in touchdown passes.
Elway lost badly in his first two Superbowls. Also, the final four this year include, in my opinion, three future HOF QB's and a fourth Josh Allen, who is "illusive" I'm as big a fan of Kirk as anyone, bought his number 8 Vikings Jersey the day he signed with us, but the bottom line is, he is not illusive, hopefully not yet. He is dependent on play action. In 2019, 35.7 percent of his dropbacks, were from play action. (Pro Football Focus.) On those passes, he had eight touchdowns, one interception, and a 140.2 passer rating. He should buy Dalvin Cook a gold watch. I saw glimpses of him becoming more illusive in the final two games this year, but that needs to be improved before we start going to a higher pass/run ratio. As for who we are, we've been drafting o-line to comport to a zone blocking run scheme, we are who are personnel are. So you're right, it's by design, but its the current reality, and would require an overhaul to change. O-line, offensive coordinator, etc. They are zone run blockers.
Wouldn't Vikings fans dream of making two super bowls. Yes, Kirk is more effective with play action but if you have PFF you'll notice that everyone is. Nobody is arguing they shouldn't ever run or use play action, but leaning so heavily on the run and getting themselves into situations where they can't use play action is a killer for allowing pressure. Your last point is the key point for why people push back against the notion that pass-first would be better: Because it doesn't seem likely. Not because every darn bit of evidence doesn't point to it. But I don't think they're that far away from leaning heavier on the passing game and adding a playmaker or two. And hey, if Bill Parcells can have the No. 2 passing offense in the NFL and go to the Super Bowl in 1996, Zimmer can change too
Another good Article -- As the draft and free agency approaches, does it make sense to solve the O-line issues first, then spend the rest of the draft on the defense? It seems like just a couple of new line-men would make a huge difference.
Thanks Del! Agree on improving the OL. In terms of players who can make an impact right away, O-linemen seem to take longer to develop so free agency might be the best approach to loading up the line and get some pass rush in the draft
Great read Matthew! Zimmer needs to stop being afraid and stuck in his ways!! If the Vikings deploy the same philosophy Zimmer will be fired. If they change to a aggressive pass first offense centered around Jefferson Zimmer might still get fired but the Vikings could also win 13 games and make a run to the Super Bowl. If this team wants to compete with best he needs to look in the mirror
Thank you Ben. I'll have something Tuesday on Jefferson's targets that will make you scratch your head too. One thing I'd never completely count out with Zimmer is changing something. He's done it on defense many times...
Hurts to hear but it's true. I wondered back then if making Diggs the absolute #1 (12+ targets per game) would cause friction with Thielen, but it almost doesn't matter.
Yeah I don't think it would have.. it 2016 it was kind of that way with their roles. Winning is always the thing that makes everyone the happiest. Though I don't think they had to take away Thielen targets, just 2nd down runs
I couldn’t agree more. Perfectly summed up Coller.
It’s so hard to find top level players at any position
Then to trade them because you can’t find the best way to use their skills..
Diggs is not only consistent. He steps up in big games (if you pass him the ball)
Not sure if a GM or coaching issue? But it doesn’t make sense. Yes that got Jefferson on cheaper money. But also traded away a star.
Thank you! It's a coaching philosophy thing and a front office needing to go cheap on some positions cuz of the cap and WR3/4 end up being those spots often times. Plus the front office building an O-line to run block.
Imagine if we had diggs thielen and Jefferson and really defilippo was right by passing cuz thats what we should be doing and build the offense to score because it's closer than the d lets get real here
Trading Diggs was a bad trade, nice the Vikings ended up with Jefferson but they could have easily gotten Treadwell 2.0
This team isn’t built to come back from a deficit, the interior of the offensive line is a mess, as is the entire defense.
This team’s ceiling is a divisional game at best, more likely a wild card birth with the expanded playoffs.
you're right... if the Eagles take Jefferson, we're having a totally different conversation. I don't know if there's a wake-up call coming about that ceiling you mentioned but maybe after seeing this. Zimmer did once admit he misused Patterson
you're right... if the Eagles take Jefferson, we're having a totally different conversation. I don't know if there's a wake-up call coming about that ceiling you mentioned but maybe after seeing this. Zimmer did once admit he misused Patterson
Good piece (that most folks will either love or hate) and I'm largely in agreement with it, particularly just in terms of the lack of use of Diggs leading to his trade demand in the first place. The one aspect I wonder about though is the respective offensive lines. The Vikings haven't really been able to get up to "average" with the o-line in recent years (I think with the exception of 2017?) and that of course is an organizational failing. I think I saw I graphic in the Bills game last night that most of their o-line starters seemed to be roughly in the top third (or at the least top half) at their position. Of course the Vikes have consciously constructed an offensive line to run and maybe would have done better choosing players had they had a pass-oriented offense from the jump, but the failure to put together a "decent" o-line for almost all of the Spielman/Zimmer era has probably also limited what they can do offensively and/or would have resulted in less success had they decided on a "pass first" offense every season since acquiring Cousins. Might be a bit of chicken-and-the-egg problem here to in terms of o-line quality and offensive approach, but routinely bad pass blocking seems like a huge part of the story, however you want to lay the blame for that.
Thanks Geoff... You're right about the Vikings consistently failing to put a good pass blocking offensive line out there but consider that they built it this way. It was their choice to draft and play guys who were strong in run blocking. Otherwise Jones would have played LG over Dozier. Also Josh Allen is quite a bit different in terms of helping his OL from Cousins but there isn't much that can be done there. That's why I can't say that it's the OL's quality that keeps them from passing... the OL does what they designed it to do
Dozier over Jones all season long is indefensible to me, and I'm hardly one to question coaches/GMs about personnel (because what the hell do I know). Just made no sense at all.
the PFF data backs you up so strongly on this that it's very hard to justify
Good article. Brought out a lot of what I felt watching the game last night. Diggs in a way sticking it to the Vikings for not relying on a modern passing offense. The sad thing is that even after all of this I have my doubts the Vikings will replicate this. My favorite point was that the Rams were everything the Vikings wished they could be, but what I think is hilarious is the Bille are literally everything the Vikings should aspire to be. The Bills have a defensive coach that doesn’t put the sole focus of his efforts on the defense and they lean into their offense since they realize how damn good they are at it. Then they complement it with good enough defense.
Thanks Joe. You're absolutely right about the Rams. The No. 1 defense could only hold up so long when the other team has an elite passing game. Great point about McDermott in Buffalo. That defense has a few good players but mostly just guys who fit what he wants to do with his scheme and then he brought it against Lamar
"What if the Vikings had done the same in 2019? Could they have beaten San Fran"... you mean the team that ran the ball 47 times and passed 19.... on their way to the Super Bowl ? the team that came within an eyelash of winning that Super Bowl by running and running again and then running again??? Are you actually arguing that our run first scheme made it impossible to beat teams like SF and GB who also use run first schemes?? Im thinking your argument might have a few holes in it.
I’m not sure I understand your argument. San Francisco was a top 5 team by passing Expected Points Added in 2019 and beat New Orleans 48-46 to help them get into a spot where they could have a home playoff game. They ran the ball that many times in one game against a defense incapable of stopping it. I would never argue that a team that’s crushing another team on the ground should stop. But the Vikings did not crush the 49ers on the ground in the playoffs... exactly the opposite.
when the Vikings got stopped in their run game, they didn’t have answers in the passing game in 2019. Is that statement inaccurate? When SF stopped Cook, it was over. When Cook was out vs GB in Week 16, it was over. My point is that if Diggs had been the centerpiece of their offense, maybe they would have given themselves a chance to respond when their run game wasn’t working because clearly targeting him 5 times was not effective
I wish Diggs all the best. He gave us the "Miracle," which is a lot more than other past Vikings have given before they moved on. The trade was a win win, since we get Jefferson on a rookie deal. 2019 was more about the o-line than not passing to Diggs enough. I'm sure Cousins would have loved to throw to Diggs all day long, but it's tough to do when your laying on your back!
I totally get the focus on the offensive line but I don't believe that's an explanation for the team not throwing more. Cousins has over a 100 QB rating the last 2 years, over 8 yards per pass attempt and a clean pocket on around 65% of his passes. They also put him in a position to be pressured by getting behind the sticks like on 3rd and 5 after 2 runs. For the record, Josh Allen pressure % this year was 37.1%, Kirk 38.6%
I think stats are great, but don't always tell the entire story. How much of that 65 percent clean pocket came in garbage time? . . . Or as a result of teams biting on play action caused by a commitment to the run? The point being, the stats aren't generated in a vacuum and don't' take account for changing circumstances. For example if the Vikings had gone to a heavier pass/run ratio favoring passing, would teams have adjusted and had more pressures? Probably. Given the Kubaick influence, I think the best way to look at it is John Elway's Superbowls. He had the most success when he had the support of a solid running game behind Terrell Davis and threw less, not more. I think that's the approach they are going for. Hey, don't get me wrong, as a fan, I always like seeing big play passing, and mixing in a little more pass would be a good thing, but trying to be something you're not, is a recipe for disaster.
So here's the thing about pressure rate... it's about 65% clean pocket for Kirk's entire career. So it's not garbage time. And his performance under pressure was nearly identical in QB rating (78 vs 72) to Josh Allen's. Pressure is not an excuse for not throwing the ball. And look, I get you on the John Elway bit and nobody loves 1990s football more than me but it's 2021 and the top 4 most efficient passing teams are in the super bowl. The only reason that a passing team is "something they're not" is because they set it up that way.
side note: Looked it up... The 97 Broncos were 9th in passing yards, 3rd in adjusted net yards per pass, 3rd in yards per completion and 4th in touchdown passes.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1997/
Think about the comparison... also John Elway went to two other Super Bowls with nobody special at running back
Elway lost badly in his first two Superbowls. Also, the final four this year include, in my opinion, three future HOF QB's and a fourth Josh Allen, who is "illusive" I'm as big a fan of Kirk as anyone, bought his number 8 Vikings Jersey the day he signed with us, but the bottom line is, he is not illusive, hopefully not yet. He is dependent on play action. In 2019, 35.7 percent of his dropbacks, were from play action. (Pro Football Focus.) On those passes, he had eight touchdowns, one interception, and a 140.2 passer rating. He should buy Dalvin Cook a gold watch. I saw glimpses of him becoming more illusive in the final two games this year, but that needs to be improved before we start going to a higher pass/run ratio. As for who we are, we've been drafting o-line to comport to a zone blocking run scheme, we are who are personnel are. So you're right, it's by design, but its the current reality, and would require an overhaul to change. O-line, offensive coordinator, etc. They are zone run blockers.
Wouldn't Vikings fans dream of making two super bowls. Yes, Kirk is more effective with play action but if you have PFF you'll notice that everyone is. Nobody is arguing they shouldn't ever run or use play action, but leaning so heavily on the run and getting themselves into situations where they can't use play action is a killer for allowing pressure. Your last point is the key point for why people push back against the notion that pass-first would be better: Because it doesn't seem likely. Not because every darn bit of evidence doesn't point to it. But I don't think they're that far away from leaning heavier on the passing game and adding a playmaker or two. And hey, if Bill Parcells can have the No. 2 passing offense in the NFL and go to the Super Bowl in 1996, Zimmer can change too
Another good Article -- As the draft and free agency approaches, does it make sense to solve the O-line issues first, then spend the rest of the draft on the defense? It seems like just a couple of new line-men would make a huge difference.
Thanks Del! Agree on improving the OL. In terms of players who can make an impact right away, O-linemen seem to take longer to develop so free agency might be the best approach to loading up the line and get some pass rush in the draft
I miss guys like Tom Johnson, Joe Berger, and of course Jeremiah Sirles.
you're not wrong Bob, those are the guys that fill out a really good team
Great read Matthew! Zimmer needs to stop being afraid and stuck in his ways!! If the Vikings deploy the same philosophy Zimmer will be fired. If they change to a aggressive pass first offense centered around Jefferson Zimmer might still get fired but the Vikings could also win 13 games and make a run to the Super Bowl. If this team wants to compete with best he needs to look in the mirror
Thank you Ben. I'll have something Tuesday on Jefferson's targets that will make you scratch your head too. One thing I'd never completely count out with Zimmer is changing something. He's done it on defense many times...
Hurts to hear but it's true. I wondered back then if making Diggs the absolute #1 (12+ targets per game) would cause friction with Thielen, but it almost doesn't matter.
Yeah I don't think it would have.. it 2016 it was kind of that way with their roles. Winning is always the thing that makes everyone the happiest. Though I don't think they had to take away Thielen targets, just 2nd down runs