Seeing a lot of hysteria and negativity over Saturday's game across multiple discussion sites and for the most part I do not think it's warranted.
-There's not a group of 2nd stringers in the league that will look good against anyone's 1st team. Especially against a strong roster like Denver's.
-Over half of these guys were seeing their first live fire in the pros.
-I'm not even remotely bothered by Mond's performance or his comments after the game. The kid is 22 years old and anyone that watched him in college knew he was never going to be the backup QB this year. He's a project QB with high upside. I'm sorry to anyone who thought he should be fighting for or winning the backup spot, but that was never a realistic possibility. I like the pick, but he's a long term project.
-A lot of the guys we saw struggle on Saturday are going to be just fine. If they look like this after the 3rd pre-season game, then it's time to worry. A lot. But not yet.
-In the comments below, Sandbun mentioned the mess that was special teams. This is indeed concerning after last year's catastrophic special teams. They looked lost out there.
-The offensive line. I was immensely frustrated with most of the media in this town who were falling all over themselves to applaud the Vikings for "fixing" the o-line with the Davis/Darrisaw pick. The chances of those two stepping in this year and just being serviceable would be a significant deviation from history for rookie o-linemen. This line currently projects out to being worse than last year. Kudos to Sam and Matthew for being 2 of the only media members in town that were unimpressed by the Vikings meager attempt to fix a horrendous line.
-Not a single player stood out in a positive way on Saturday in my estimation. Unusual and concerning. The ONLY player that I can give faint praise to is Greg "The Leg" Joseph for just going out and doing his job by hitting a couple of short/medium field goals without incident.
-Zimmer's demeanor after the game. His bluntness might make for good ink, but it's borderline insanity for a man who is ostensibly the leader of this football team to carry himself the way he did on Saturday evening. On rare occasion, calling a player out in public can have a positive impact when it's done in a strategic manner. But his press conference was more akin to a therapy session than strategy. Unless you're either a poet or a musician, there's not many professions where wearing your heart on your sleeve is a smart decision. For God's sake Mike, pull yourself together and act like a professional. You're the coach, not an angry fan.
I'll add one other legit concern that I inadvertently left off my list:
-Mac Jones looked pretty darn good for a rookie this past weekend. Matthew, I am in complete agreement with you that the Vikings deserve criticism in the exact proportion of Mac Jones' success in this league.
This is a team that needs a long term solution at quarterback and one of the top prospects dropped to them. For whatever reason, they passed. It's only a single pre-season game, but based on that small data sample, it looks like a bad decision.
When you say it’s justified that Davis is getting third team reps are you saying Dozier deserves to be ahead of him? If so, you must of watched a different game than the one I saw. I thought Davis improved throughout and was one of the few bright spots. PFF seamed to agree and give him a pretty nice grade for his first NFL game action.
I assume Sam is referring to the way Davis hasn't caught up in practice and actually dropped down the lineup recently. Davis certainly played better in the preseason game... he also played into the fourth quarter I believe.. that tells you about where somebody stands. PFF also gave Davis a below avg pass blocking grade (not that I think grades in that small of a sample are all that meaningful)... this isn't to defend Dozier, just to say that usage is everything in preseason
I agree Davis could still use a lot of improvement in pass blocking. However, his strength and size should really be key to his improvement there. I believe there was more concern about his mobility in relation to their outside zone run blocking scheme and I was pleasantly surprised how well he moved in his first action. Needless to say, I don’t believe there’s a single Viking fan who believes Dozier should be above Davis on the depth chart.
He has size, but does he have strength? For many rookie o-linemen, strength is the biggest reason they struggle in the NFL. For the vast, vast majority of rookie o-linemen, it's not until their 2nd season that they're "NFL strong". Part of this is due to their body's maturing, a larger part them realizing the level of strength and training required to just be an average lineman in the NFL. It's incredibly difficult for any NFL player to add strength during the season.
Obviously Davis has a mass advantage over Dozier right now and that does indeed matter. But I'd be surprised if he's significantly stronger than Dozier.
Of course, he has a below-average pass-blocking grade and an above-average run-blocking grade... what do you suppose the emphasis has been from Zimmer and Dennison? Not passing. The O-line coaching is represented by Dozier and Sumia in part of the resume.
Don't disagree with any of this, but honestly my biggest concern out of this game is how special teams looked. A lot of those guys will be the starters on special teams, and this team isn't good enough to constantly be behind the 8-ball because of yet another poor year of special teams.
Any shellacking is always a decent cause for concern... but honestly, if the Vikes backups came out firing on all cylinders and the Broncos looked lost and unprepared, would that stop fans and media from hyping the 2021 team?
I think this gut punch is exactly what the entire squad (including coaches) needed, no way can this franchise crawl out of another miserable start to the season. Fingers crossed the starters stay healthy, cause the moment someone stubs a toe the major talking point will circle back to this abysmal preseason game.
I considered this essentially the same as what the 4th preseason game would have been. That said, I listened to the podcast and read this article and have a serious disagreement with some of what you both stated about Wyatt Davis and Kellon Mond. I also have some things to say about Zimmer.
Wyatt Davis:
Wyatt Davis was a 3rd round pick who graded 78.9 overall on Saturday by PFF. Yes, he initially struggled in his first game in the NFL but so did Brian O’Neill. When O’Neill started out he got pushed all over the place. Give the guy time to mature and become acclimated to the game before you put him last in the depth chart when he’s obviously better than Dozier.
Who’s bringing Davis along? An acolyte of a failed O-line coach who is not the run game coordinator from afar. Do you really believe Kubiak is calling those plays without oversight from Dennison and Zimmer? Klint is sandwiched between two old school run, run, run stuck in the rut coaches and the legacy of his father who Zimmer defines as a run, run, run coach. Davis doesn’t even have a Veteran to learn from besides O’Neill. Part of the reason the O-line has been trash is the lack of development because the coaches have failed to develop and Dennison who has demonstrated an inability to orchestrate pass blocking, is the defacto O-line coach. Its no mystery to me that we grade higher in run blocking than pass blocking. It is as obvious as a third thumb.
Kellen Mond:
Give me a break. The guy is a 3rd round developmental quarterback. We knew he would be from the beginning. Anyone who expected rapid acclimation to the NFL didn’t do the research to see that he gradually yet significantly improves ‘with coaching’ and repetition as he did throughout college. Having him handoff over and over again doesn’t really allow him to get a greater feel for the game or how to adjust to the weaknesses of the O-line. The fact that the majority of the supporting cast were in an NFL game situation either for the first time or were considered marginal players doesn’t really provide Mond the opportunity to pull the team together or motivate the total in a direction that would include supporting his play. Frankly, I think you were way too harsh in your assessment. I am not saying he will become Aaron Rogers but it is too early to tell whether he’ll be a Kelly Holcomb. Zimmer is still pissed at Mond for contracting COVID and for not being vaccinated. I agree that the players should be vaccinated but put yourself in Mond’s position. The starting quarterback, one of the leading receivers, and one of the most significant players in the locker room support no vaccination. He's with Cousins who he is supposed to learn from, Theilen who he’s supposed to throw to, and Harrison Smith a shoe in pro-bowler are all unvaccinated and two of the three are very vocal about never going to get vaccinated. Zimmer should be trying to bolster this kid up by consistently supporting his learning building a rapport that could result in Mond reconsidering the vaccination as well as pushing himself more. Ripping Mond with intensity this early is ridiculous and truly something I'd expect from an idiot head coach, not Zimmer. Regardless of the outcome of this year I hope Cousins is gone and Zimmer is fired. We'd have more hope and a more current approach to the game with Bienemy.
Zimmer:
Zimmer’s attitude or frustration is as much rooted in COVID protocols as the poor play of the offense and defense during the game. What did you or Zimmer expect when he threw the 32nd worst player through the rest of the roster downward against much of the starting players and two NFL starting quarterbacks? Some of this is on the coach’s lack of ability in preparing the scrubs. They are naturally focused on the starters but more so than usual because so many of the starters are new to the system. That means 3rd, 4th strings, and below are not getting the same amount of attention. So… who’s to blame on the D side of the ball? Zimmer’s son? Zimmer himself? It is not Patterson. Patterson is unquestioningly the best coach on the team. So who on the O side of the ball? Klint? I don’t think so. Dennison is still in command of the running game and that’s nearly all we saw. Dennison is so supported by Zimmer that he was retained despite of COVID boneheadedness. Do you think Klint is going to go against Dennison, his father’s buddy, or Zimmer? Never going to happen. The Offense has to fail to such an extent that the defense cannot bail them out before Zimmer will, if he ever will, allow the OC the freedom to uptick the passing game.
They are still playing Dozier and Sumia… that’s not the player’s fault.
I’ll stop there but give Mond and Davis some room to grow before you define them as a waste of time or terrible players.
Seeing a lot of hysteria and negativity over Saturday's game across multiple discussion sites and for the most part I do not think it's warranted.
-There's not a group of 2nd stringers in the league that will look good against anyone's 1st team. Especially against a strong roster like Denver's.
-Over half of these guys were seeing their first live fire in the pros.
-I'm not even remotely bothered by Mond's performance or his comments after the game. The kid is 22 years old and anyone that watched him in college knew he was never going to be the backup QB this year. He's a project QB with high upside. I'm sorry to anyone who thought he should be fighting for or winning the backup spot, but that was never a realistic possibility. I like the pick, but he's a long term project.
-A lot of the guys we saw struggle on Saturday are going to be just fine. If they look like this after the 3rd pre-season game, then it's time to worry. A lot. But not yet.
==================================================
Where I think worrying IS warranted:
-In the comments below, Sandbun mentioned the mess that was special teams. This is indeed concerning after last year's catastrophic special teams. They looked lost out there.
-The offensive line. I was immensely frustrated with most of the media in this town who were falling all over themselves to applaud the Vikings for "fixing" the o-line with the Davis/Darrisaw pick. The chances of those two stepping in this year and just being serviceable would be a significant deviation from history for rookie o-linemen. This line currently projects out to being worse than last year. Kudos to Sam and Matthew for being 2 of the only media members in town that were unimpressed by the Vikings meager attempt to fix a horrendous line.
-Not a single player stood out in a positive way on Saturday in my estimation. Unusual and concerning. The ONLY player that I can give faint praise to is Greg "The Leg" Joseph for just going out and doing his job by hitting a couple of short/medium field goals without incident.
-Zimmer's demeanor after the game. His bluntness might make for good ink, but it's borderline insanity for a man who is ostensibly the leader of this football team to carry himself the way he did on Saturday evening. On rare occasion, calling a player out in public can have a positive impact when it's done in a strategic manner. But his press conference was more akin to a therapy session than strategy. Unless you're either a poet or a musician, there's not many professions where wearing your heart on your sleeve is a smart decision. For God's sake Mike, pull yourself together and act like a professional. You're the coach, not an angry fan.
I'll add one other legit concern that I inadvertently left off my list:
-Mac Jones looked pretty darn good for a rookie this past weekend. Matthew, I am in complete agreement with you that the Vikings deserve criticism in the exact proportion of Mac Jones' success in this league.
This is a team that needs a long term solution at quarterback and one of the top prospects dropped to them. For whatever reason, they passed. It's only a single pre-season game, but based on that small data sample, it looks like a bad decision.
Spot on!!
When you say it’s justified that Davis is getting third team reps are you saying Dozier deserves to be ahead of him? If so, you must of watched a different game than the one I saw. I thought Davis improved throughout and was one of the few bright spots. PFF seamed to agree and give him a pretty nice grade for his first NFL game action.
I assume Sam is referring to the way Davis hasn't caught up in practice and actually dropped down the lineup recently. Davis certainly played better in the preseason game... he also played into the fourth quarter I believe.. that tells you about where somebody stands. PFF also gave Davis a below avg pass blocking grade (not that I think grades in that small of a sample are all that meaningful)... this isn't to defend Dozier, just to say that usage is everything in preseason
I agree Davis could still use a lot of improvement in pass blocking. However, his strength and size should really be key to his improvement there. I believe there was more concern about his mobility in relation to their outside zone run blocking scheme and I was pleasantly surprised how well he moved in his first action. Needless to say, I don’t believe there’s a single Viking fan who believes Dozier should be above Davis on the depth chart.
He has size, but does he have strength? For many rookie o-linemen, strength is the biggest reason they struggle in the NFL. For the vast, vast majority of rookie o-linemen, it's not until their 2nd season that they're "NFL strong". Part of this is due to their body's maturing, a larger part them realizing the level of strength and training required to just be an average lineman in the NFL. It's incredibly difficult for any NFL player to add strength during the season.
Obviously Davis has a mass advantage over Dozier right now and that does indeed matter. But I'd be surprised if he's significantly stronger than Dozier.
Of course, he has a below-average pass-blocking grade and an above-average run-blocking grade... what do you suppose the emphasis has been from Zimmer and Dennison? Not passing. The O-line coaching is represented by Dozier and Sumia in part of the resume.
Don't disagree with any of this, but honestly my biggest concern out of this game is how special teams looked. A lot of those guys will be the starters on special teams, and this team isn't good enough to constantly be behind the 8-ball because of yet another poor year of special teams.
Hard to watch.
I thought I was watching a replay of the start of last year!
Any shellacking is always a decent cause for concern... but honestly, if the Vikes backups came out firing on all cylinders and the Broncos looked lost and unprepared, would that stop fans and media from hyping the 2021 team?
I think this gut punch is exactly what the entire squad (including coaches) needed, no way can this franchise crawl out of another miserable start to the season. Fingers crossed the starters stay healthy, cause the moment someone stubs a toe the major talking point will circle back to this abysmal preseason game.
I considered this essentially the same as what the 4th preseason game would have been. That said, I listened to the podcast and read this article and have a serious disagreement with some of what you both stated about Wyatt Davis and Kellon Mond. I also have some things to say about Zimmer.
Wyatt Davis:
Wyatt Davis was a 3rd round pick who graded 78.9 overall on Saturday by PFF. Yes, he initially struggled in his first game in the NFL but so did Brian O’Neill. When O’Neill started out he got pushed all over the place. Give the guy time to mature and become acclimated to the game before you put him last in the depth chart when he’s obviously better than Dozier.
Who’s bringing Davis along? An acolyte of a failed O-line coach who is not the run game coordinator from afar. Do you really believe Kubiak is calling those plays without oversight from Dennison and Zimmer? Klint is sandwiched between two old school run, run, run stuck in the rut coaches and the legacy of his father who Zimmer defines as a run, run, run coach. Davis doesn’t even have a Veteran to learn from besides O’Neill. Part of the reason the O-line has been trash is the lack of development because the coaches have failed to develop and Dennison who has demonstrated an inability to orchestrate pass blocking, is the defacto O-line coach. Its no mystery to me that we grade higher in run blocking than pass blocking. It is as obvious as a third thumb.
Kellen Mond:
Give me a break. The guy is a 3rd round developmental quarterback. We knew he would be from the beginning. Anyone who expected rapid acclimation to the NFL didn’t do the research to see that he gradually yet significantly improves ‘with coaching’ and repetition as he did throughout college. Having him handoff over and over again doesn’t really allow him to get a greater feel for the game or how to adjust to the weaknesses of the O-line. The fact that the majority of the supporting cast were in an NFL game situation either for the first time or were considered marginal players doesn’t really provide Mond the opportunity to pull the team together or motivate the total in a direction that would include supporting his play. Frankly, I think you were way too harsh in your assessment. I am not saying he will become Aaron Rogers but it is too early to tell whether he’ll be a Kelly Holcomb. Zimmer is still pissed at Mond for contracting COVID and for not being vaccinated. I agree that the players should be vaccinated but put yourself in Mond’s position. The starting quarterback, one of the leading receivers, and one of the most significant players in the locker room support no vaccination. He's with Cousins who he is supposed to learn from, Theilen who he’s supposed to throw to, and Harrison Smith a shoe in pro-bowler are all unvaccinated and two of the three are very vocal about never going to get vaccinated. Zimmer should be trying to bolster this kid up by consistently supporting his learning building a rapport that could result in Mond reconsidering the vaccination as well as pushing himself more. Ripping Mond with intensity this early is ridiculous and truly something I'd expect from an idiot head coach, not Zimmer. Regardless of the outcome of this year I hope Cousins is gone and Zimmer is fired. We'd have more hope and a more current approach to the game with Bienemy.
Zimmer:
Zimmer’s attitude or frustration is as much rooted in COVID protocols as the poor play of the offense and defense during the game. What did you or Zimmer expect when he threw the 32nd worst player through the rest of the roster downward against much of the starting players and two NFL starting quarterbacks? Some of this is on the coach’s lack of ability in preparing the scrubs. They are naturally focused on the starters but more so than usual because so many of the starters are new to the system. That means 3rd, 4th strings, and below are not getting the same amount of attention. So… who’s to blame on the D side of the ball? Zimmer’s son? Zimmer himself? It is not Patterson. Patterson is unquestioningly the best coach on the team. So who on the O side of the ball? Klint? I don’t think so. Dennison is still in command of the running game and that’s nearly all we saw. Dennison is so supported by Zimmer that he was retained despite of COVID boneheadedness. Do you think Klint is going to go against Dennison, his father’s buddy, or Zimmer? Never going to happen. The Offense has to fail to such an extent that the defense cannot bail them out before Zimmer will, if he ever will, allow the OC the freedom to uptick the passing game.
They are still playing Dozier and Sumia… that’s not the player’s fault.
I’ll stop there but give Mond and Davis some room to grow before you define them as a waste of time or terrible players.