Awesome depth and analysis, Matthew, though you could have just titled the article "The Shit Show" and we all would've known what it was about. The point that we're caught in a time loop is so dead-on. And that it's hard to know what they might do because they don't seem to know what they're doing.
That said, we do know they draft for needs big time so if they do pick at 14 I can believe they'd take Darrisaw over Paye if the choice is presented. Because they can slog by with Weatherly & Wonnum and grab someone in the third (Turner, Weaver, Tryon, Sample?) at DE, and Darrisaw is a complete beast in the run game so even Zim can go for that.
As bad as this O-line is they could still come back in third and take a Meinerz, Hudson, or Green (if Meinerz is still available. Bonus that he also plays center. Just saying in a couple years that could be handy. If Rick is still in charge he'll give Bradbury a fifth year option to show it was a good pick. New guy isn't going to care though I guess Franchise tag of centers is cheap, which is why you only take All-Pro caliber ones at 18). Tough to expect a third round rookie to play even average, but ten bucks any would be better than Samia. I know you liked Ben Cleveland in your sim Saturday night, but I don't see how that works (let me refer you to this great article I just read on the Vikings Guards problems and their cutting of one Alex Boone...)
I like that Ben Cleveland is massive and I think going massive might be a strong play since going small hasn't really done them many favors. You're probably right that looking for someone in the third isn't a terrible play when few guards will be off the board by then. Adding a rookie with a veteran to compete might be the way to give them the best chance
Yep, and I don't disagree when it comes to size. I hated the Bradbury pick at the time.The three guys I mention are athletic, but they ain't small. Meinerz is 6'3' and 320, Hudson is 6'5" and 310, and Green is 6'4" and 315. The words "functional strength" and "core strength" have been used for each of them. It's also the reason I highlighted Darrisaw instead of Slater. I only bring up so many of them because even if Vikings still find an average starter in free agency they still have no depth. There's a strong argument to pick up two OL in their first three or four picks, especially if they're able to trade down and pick up another second rounder.
Great article. When it comes to guard is paying a guy 15 million a year who would only improve your team by a little the best use of limited salary cap space?? Probably not. But you also can’t play a Dru Samia type player in that position as well. They have to find something in the middle
Thank you Ben. You're right that overpaying for a guard isn't really possible when the team is limited on space. It basically means the risks they take at the position have to work... and they mostly haven't for them recently
I've always felt these O-lines woes were bad luck AND shoddy process...
Spielman has been trying, but the investments have been 50/50, which is something a lot of teams suffer from but many others get blasted for it. Another factor I think that kills the process is coaching style VS. player ability... if someone is lacking certain skills that shows up in practice or eventually on gameday, why keep running into that wall?! Adjustments in coaching and play execution feels like a sneaky issue that GM Spielman will never admit publicly.
I think you've got it on being a combination of both. When you're going with a cheap OL, you need things to break your way. At the same time, how they could watch Samia and then play him over Jones is really puzzling. Are they valuing the right elements of a player's game?
Excellent analysis Matthew! Im admittedly an optimistic fan who tends to give the team the benefit of the doubt when it comes to strategy. This really illustrates an approach thats difficult to understand. I really dont understand the stubborn refusal to replace guys who are dying out there, how do you not give Fred Jones a chance when Dozier, Samia, Elflein where crippling the entire offense?... or even play Hill or Udoh and slide Reiff inside?
Thanks Rod. Udoh is already a developmental tackle, I don't know if moving him to a different position would be a high percentage play when he was mostly inactive as a tackle. That would be more grasping at straws unless he made huge strides there. They have to make a higher percentage play at guard this time.
Brett Jones is better than Dozier and Samia! I don't understand why they left him on the sideline holding his package as Cousins was dealing with the rampaging Werewolf War Daddies! Hopefully, they'll give Jones and Hill their chance to become starters.
The thing that bothers me is the lack of investment at the guard position. You have a young center who makes the line calls and is undersized. On top of that, you surround him with people who are some of the worst in their profession at the position. If Bradbury has competent guards beside him, I think he will be better in pass protection. The tradeoff with the Kubiak scheme is mobility is preferred over size, and that hurts when you are facing DTs like Akiem Hicks. I would prefer a more balanced approach given that Cousins is the QB. The lack of mobility is a big problem when you have an undersized interior offensive line.
Right on. I fully buy into players on the OL impacting each other. If the guy next to you is the worst in the NFL at his position, it has to have an impact on how you're doing your job. It was also interesting that they did use some power/gap scheme runs last year at times.. it's not like they *have* to do it exactly the same way all the time with zone runs. Shanahan doesn't
I'm not sure Tomlinson's or Brown Jr.'s own mothers would call them "stars", but that's a small point in an otherwise thorough piece.
The Vikings have had bad luck with injuries on the OL. Uncle Phil Loadholt should still be playing given how OTs normally age. Then, we have two promising rookies (Kalil and Elflein) who had easily their best seasons as rookies, got hurt, and were never even close to the same guys. Bless them for getting 2nd contracts, but normally OL peak around year 4-5. Easton's back and Fusco's pec prevented them from ever being what they had been, and as you note Kline not even going to camp with anyone suggests an injury there, too. It's fair to note the lack of capital (draft or cash) allocated to G, but the OL has been seemingly snakebitten more than any other position group.
Oh, and I continue to wait for any evidence that Cleveland is intended to play OT. It was a weird off-season, but presumably if the plan was to play him at OT he would have *checks notes* taken reps there. He didn't, and resigning Hill further suggests Cleveland is a G.
Hey, everyone's mom should think they're a star. I agree that they've definitely been snake bitten... some of their responses to the snake bites have been pretty poor (i.e. moving Remmers).
Constantly changing a players position is a huge issue, but it feels to me that they value athleticism over actual ABILITY. The way they approach the OL is the same way Al Davis used to draft wideouts. Instead of valuing an ability like route running, he went with the fastest WR on the board every time.
Vikings OL at all positions, except maybe O’Neill, seem to get dominated by guys who are powerful, and just get pushed back into the pocket, which makes Kirk easy pickings.
They value the wrong traits and assume, as they also do with the DL, that they can just coach up the talent, with minimal success in doing so.
Hard to argue that when they played Samia and Dozier over Brett Jones and there's no justifying that by any measure. The guys they've rolled with, including Elflein, do not usually stand up when situations are the toughest on third downs... which makes those choices pretty questionable
This is the type of Chess Master analysis I enjoy most! I wonder how much of a negative impact Tony Sparano's passing had on the process?
Awesome depth and analysis, Matthew, though you could have just titled the article "The Shit Show" and we all would've known what it was about. The point that we're caught in a time loop is so dead-on. And that it's hard to know what they might do because they don't seem to know what they're doing.
That said, we do know they draft for needs big time so if they do pick at 14 I can believe they'd take Darrisaw over Paye if the choice is presented. Because they can slog by with Weatherly & Wonnum and grab someone in the third (Turner, Weaver, Tryon, Sample?) at DE, and Darrisaw is a complete beast in the run game so even Zim can go for that.
As bad as this O-line is they could still come back in third and take a Meinerz, Hudson, or Green (if Meinerz is still available. Bonus that he also plays center. Just saying in a couple years that could be handy. If Rick is still in charge he'll give Bradbury a fifth year option to show it was a good pick. New guy isn't going to care though I guess Franchise tag of centers is cheap, which is why you only take All-Pro caliber ones at 18). Tough to expect a third round rookie to play even average, but ten bucks any would be better than Samia. I know you liked Ben Cleveland in your sim Saturday night, but I don't see how that works (let me refer you to this great article I just read on the Vikings Guards problems and their cutting of one Alex Boone...)
I like that Ben Cleveland is massive and I think going massive might be a strong play since going small hasn't really done them many favors. You're probably right that looking for someone in the third isn't a terrible play when few guards will be off the board by then. Adding a rookie with a veteran to compete might be the way to give them the best chance
Yep, and I don't disagree when it comes to size. I hated the Bradbury pick at the time.The three guys I mention are athletic, but they ain't small. Meinerz is 6'3' and 320, Hudson is 6'5" and 310, and Green is 6'4" and 315. The words "functional strength" and "core strength" have been used for each of them. It's also the reason I highlighted Darrisaw instead of Slater. I only bring up so many of them because even if Vikings still find an average starter in free agency they still have no depth. There's a strong argument to pick up two OL in their first three or four picks, especially if they're able to trade down and pick up another second rounder.
Great article. When it comes to guard is paying a guy 15 million a year who would only improve your team by a little the best use of limited salary cap space?? Probably not. But you also can’t play a Dru Samia type player in that position as well. They have to find something in the middle
Thank you Ben. You're right that overpaying for a guard isn't really possible when the team is limited on space. It basically means the risks they take at the position have to work... and they mostly haven't for them recently
I've always felt these O-lines woes were bad luck AND shoddy process...
Spielman has been trying, but the investments have been 50/50, which is something a lot of teams suffer from but many others get blasted for it. Another factor I think that kills the process is coaching style VS. player ability... if someone is lacking certain skills that shows up in practice or eventually on gameday, why keep running into that wall?! Adjustments in coaching and play execution feels like a sneaky issue that GM Spielman will never admit publicly.
I think you've got it on being a combination of both. When you're going with a cheap OL, you need things to break your way. At the same time, how they could watch Samia and then play him over Jones is really puzzling. Are they valuing the right elements of a player's game?
Excellent analysis Matthew! Im admittedly an optimistic fan who tends to give the team the benefit of the doubt when it comes to strategy. This really illustrates an approach thats difficult to understand. I really dont understand the stubborn refusal to replace guys who are dying out there, how do you not give Fred Jones a chance when Dozier, Samia, Elflein where crippling the entire offense?... or even play Hill or Udoh and slide Reiff inside?
Thanks Rod. Udoh is already a developmental tackle, I don't know if moving him to a different position would be a high percentage play when he was mostly inactive as a tackle. That would be more grasping at straws unless he made huge strides there. They have to make a higher percentage play at guard this time.
Brett Jones is better than Dozier and Samia! I don't understand why they left him on the sideline holding his package as Cousins was dealing with the rampaging Werewolf War Daddies! Hopefully, they'll give Jones and Hill their chance to become starters.
The thing that bothers me is the lack of investment at the guard position. You have a young center who makes the line calls and is undersized. On top of that, you surround him with people who are some of the worst in their profession at the position. If Bradbury has competent guards beside him, I think he will be better in pass protection. The tradeoff with the Kubiak scheme is mobility is preferred over size, and that hurts when you are facing DTs like Akiem Hicks. I would prefer a more balanced approach given that Cousins is the QB. The lack of mobility is a big problem when you have an undersized interior offensive line.
Right on. I fully buy into players on the OL impacting each other. If the guy next to you is the worst in the NFL at his position, it has to have an impact on how you're doing your job. It was also interesting that they did use some power/gap scheme runs last year at times.. it's not like they *have* to do it exactly the same way all the time with zone runs. Shanahan doesn't
I'm not sure Tomlinson's or Brown Jr.'s own mothers would call them "stars", but that's a small point in an otherwise thorough piece.
The Vikings have had bad luck with injuries on the OL. Uncle Phil Loadholt should still be playing given how OTs normally age. Then, we have two promising rookies (Kalil and Elflein) who had easily their best seasons as rookies, got hurt, and were never even close to the same guys. Bless them for getting 2nd contracts, but normally OL peak around year 4-5. Easton's back and Fusco's pec prevented them from ever being what they had been, and as you note Kline not even going to camp with anyone suggests an injury there, too. It's fair to note the lack of capital (draft or cash) allocated to G, but the OL has been seemingly snakebitten more than any other position group.
Oh, and I continue to wait for any evidence that Cleveland is intended to play OT. It was a weird off-season, but presumably if the plan was to play him at OT he would have *checks notes* taken reps there. He didn't, and resigning Hill further suggests Cleveland is a G.
Hey, everyone's mom should think they're a star. I agree that they've definitely been snake bitten... some of their responses to the snake bites have been pretty poor (i.e. moving Remmers).
Constantly changing a players position is a huge issue, but it feels to me that they value athleticism over actual ABILITY. The way they approach the OL is the same way Al Davis used to draft wideouts. Instead of valuing an ability like route running, he went with the fastest WR on the board every time.
Vikings OL at all positions, except maybe O’Neill, seem to get dominated by guys who are powerful, and just get pushed back into the pocket, which makes Kirk easy pickings.
They value the wrong traits and assume, as they also do with the DL, that they can just coach up the talent, with minimal success in doing so.
Hard to argue that when they played Samia and Dozier over Brett Jones and there's no justifying that by any measure. The guys they've rolled with, including Elflein, do not usually stand up when situations are the toughest on third downs... which makes those choices pretty questionable